Talk:Chinese whispers

You can not be serious

I’d have to imagine this has been argued many times before and some absurd article overlord won but … Chinese Whispers … seriously?? Shit is comical. CarlStrokes (talk) 07:23, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I just found out about it today, and yes, it's comical. I will start RM now. Levivich (talk) 23:46, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 15 August 2024

Chinese whispers → Telephone game – How about, given the choice between using a racist name popular in the former British Empire, and a non-racist name popular amongst more people in the rest of the world, we choose the non-racist name? It's an embarrassment to Wikipedia that the many prior RMs have centered around WP:ENGVAR--as if racism is a matter of English variation--and WP:RETAIN--as if we should continue to have a racist name because we've always had a racist name. Given the choice of two common, recognizable, natural, precise, concise, and consistent names, let's go with the one that does not imply something negative about Chinese people. Levivich (talk) 23:51, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• I'm not convinced it's overtly racist (and that's not a phrase I often say). To be honest, I've never heard that name before today, so I did a bit of searching. I found a few marginally WP:RS which dance around the question without concluding one way or another, i.e. "Chinese Whispers - Meaning & Origin Of The Phrase". Phrase Finder. Retrieved 15 August 2024.. "Definition of CHINESE WHISPERS". merriam-webster.com. Retrieved 15 August 2024. doesn't say anything about that at all. And if you're looking for academic literature, I found "Chinese Whispers on JSTOR". www-jstor-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org. Retrieved 15 August 2024. which talks about the origins of the name but also doesn't conclude that it's racist. If we're going to insist on WP:RS for the text of our articles, I think we should also insist on WP:RS for how we title them. RoySmith (talk) 00:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think of Phrase Finder as an RS, or any kind of authority on this, particularly as it's a UK source and the author writes:

  The name ‘Chinese Whispers’ was adopted for the game in the UK in the mid 20th century, prior to that it was known as ‘Russian Scandal’ or ‘Russian Gossip’. The reason for the change isn’t clear. It is sometimes suggested that the phrase is a racial slur and is intended to convey the idea that the Chinese talk nonsense. I see no reason to assume that. The English aren’t especially badly disposed towards the Chinese – there are many other races on the UK hit list above the Chinese. I think the decision by whoever coined the phrase had more to do with the Chinese language being more incomprehensible to English ears than Russian. If there is any racial stereotyping inherent in the phrase it may be by an association with the idea that the Chinese are inscrutable.

  I'm not giving much weight to a source that says it's not racist because the English are not especially badly disposed towards the Chinese compared to how racist the English are towards other peoples, and anyway the Chinese are incomprehensible or inscrutable.

  Here are some other sources:

  • In this context, the old children’s game that is still called ‘Chinese Whispers’ in Britain springs to mind. Not only does Europe send unclear messages, non-Europeans are often reluctant to listen. Issues are ‘lost in translation’ and sometimes players twist the message to suit their own interests. ... There is one initial caveat: the very notion of ‘Chinese Whispers’—or ‘Indian Summers’, for that matter—is strongly indicative of Europe’s crucial mindset problem. Most Europeans still imply that the causes of confusion and miscommunication, if and when they occur, are located outside Europe. ... I will suggest abandoning Eurocentric rhetoric in pursuit of a relevant and open dialogue in today’s world of many worlds. ... Europeans might still name the game ‘Chinese Whispers’, but everyone else refers to ‘Belgian Waffles’ instead.
    — MAYER, H. (2008). "Is it still called “Chinese Whispers”? The EU’s rhetoric and action as a responsible global institution." International Affairs, 84(1), 62–79. doi:10.1111/j.1468-2346.2008.00689.x

  • The game is derived from dark origins, evolving from a racist idea in the mid 20th century that Chinese people spoke in a way that was deliberately unintelligible. With the majority of people now realising the derogatory nature of the name, the game is mostly referred to as the telephone game.
    — News.com.au [1]

  • The notion of “Chinese whispers” stems from a racist idea in the 1800s that Chinese people spoke in a way that was deliberately unintelligible. It associates the Chinese language with “confusion” and “incomprehensibility”. Now, the game is more commonly referred to as “the telephone game” in the United States.
    — The Chronicle (Australia) [2]

  • Though engaging in the fun word play game of passing on a whispered phrase might be a regular occurrence, the term itself comes from negative stereotypes established in America during the height of Chinese immigration that framed the sound of Chinese people speaking as unintelligible or nonsense. These days, the better term is to call the game Telephone.
    — Yahoo! Lifestyle [3]

  • It is supposed that the origin of this phrase has something to do with the Chinese language being difficult to understand and/or translate. Regardless, it's probably better the refer to poorly transmitted gossip as "a game of Telephone."
    — HuffPost [4]

  These aren't really RS either, like Phrase Finder, but as a bonus:

  • "“Chinese Whispers” - A reflection on language and turning down old phrases"
  • Phil Wang's book excerpt in The Times [5] refers to "Chinese virus" as The new Chinese whispers.
  • Phil Wang quoted in The Guardian [6]: We just call Chinese whispers ‘whispers’.

  Bottom line: it doesn't have to be overtly racist; as between a title that is maybe racist, and a title that is not at all racist, I'll choose the latter. Levivich (talk) 02:03, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support move, as per the argument of Levivich

Irruptive Creditor (talk) 04:36, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support move, based on sources quoted above, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:41, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support move – Common name varies regionally, so let's settle on one that doesn't sound racist or cringeworthy ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 08:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Talk:Chinese whispers/Archive 1#Let's close the name issue. As noted more sources use "Chinese whispers" than "telephone\telephone game", the term is less ambiguous and as noted in May 2021 the first major contributor used British English so WP:RETAIN applies. In England no one would probably know what "telephone game" is as I've never heard it used we use the term "Chinese whispers" as a metaphor when rumours are spread. Yes we don't want to appear to be racist but I've never heard anyone in England think its racist (except maybe when I asked someone a few years ago due to the previous discussion which I don't think they said yes anway) and as noted the name may come from the Great Wall of China. Are names like Chinese wall also offensive? If it was terms like Scottish whispers or Australian whispers we might find them offensive but in Chinese they probably won't be especially if they were to come from a source that isn't to do with the language. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:57, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Crouch: uh... I've never heard anyone in England think its racist is not equivalent to 'this is not racist/this does not sound racist'. And as an Australian of Chinese descent, sure, I don't encounter 'telephone game' very often, but I do die a little inside whenever I hear terms like 'Chinese whispers' or 'Chinese wall' used without question, and why on earth do you think it's less offensive than 'Scottish whispers' or 'Australian whispers'? — ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 02:25, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
    • @ClaudineChionh: I was using "Australian" and "Scottish" as examples, these terms are not in common usage AFAIK in Chinese (I don't speak Chinese so I don't know) but if these were common in Chinese they wouldn't nessesarrily have to use a different term if it was common usage in Chinese even if some Chinese people though using Austrlian or Scottish was offensive. Crouch, Swale (talk) 05:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
      • Crouch: Why are you even bringing up Chinese-language usage? This discussion is about an English-language idiom that a fair number of English-speaking people find offensive. — ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 05:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
        • Just for examples but as noted "Chinese whispers" doesn't appear to be offensive in England and we wouldn't understand what "telephone game" is so per WP:RETAIN we don't change it. Crouch, Swale (talk) 05:40, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose your argument for moving it involves showing sources that clearly demonstrate it as the common name. The term is also more precise, there's only one game known as Chinese whispers but 'telephone game' can refer to multiple things. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:57, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Traumnovelle:

the old children’s game that is still called ‘Chinese Whispers’ in Britain ... Europeans might still name the game ‘Chinese Whispers’, but everyone else ...

With the majority of people now realising the derogatory nature of the name, the game is mostly referred to as the telephone game.

Now, the game is more commonly referred to as “the telephone game” in the United States.

These days, the better term is to call the game Telephone.

better the refer to poorly transmitted gossip as "a game of Telephone."

Which of these clearly demonstrate "Chinese whispers" as the common name?

What other notable topics does "Telephone game" refer to? Levivich (talk) 21:09, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

That's just for the United States and Canada. It's known as Chinese whispers in every other English speaking country.

Aside from the hat note you can see with Google Trends that the searches for 'telephone game' have nothing to do with Chinese whispers: [7]. Telephone game itself should probably be a disambiguation with mobile phone game rather than a redirect here, let alone the main title. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:13, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support move I think one could argue for either term being the common name (although personally I never heard of it by this name until today, and I grew up in a time and place where casual racism was prevelant). Between the two choices, using the obviously not racist one seems best, while continuing to mention the other name in the article text. Mistakes were made in the naming of things in the past, and although we aren't here to right great wrongs we have a choice here, so why not make the right choice? Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 21:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose The proposal has been made several times before without success and so repeating it once again is vexatious. The claim that it's racist is absurd as Chinese is a language/culture/country, not a race. What's really at work here is Americanism - Americans insisting that we have to do things their way, contrary to WP:ENGVAR. There are plenty of other traditional games named in this way such as British bulldog, Chinese checkers, Double Dutch, French cricket, Hopscotch, Pig Latin, etc. The article has been stable at this title for many years and so WP:RETAIN applies, as before. Andrew🐉(talk) 21:59, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

  Wow, "you can't be racist against Chinese people" was not on my spurious arguments bingo card. Funny that we have an entire article about it then. Also interesting that you are assigning motivations not in evidence to other users. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 22:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

  This is purely an ENGVAR issue and we also have an article anti-British sentiment too. There's no pressure to change the title of Chinese checkers because that's familiar in US English. That game was actually invented in Germany but the Chinese branding was invented in the US.

  For another example, see Chinese burn. That's the name familiar to children in Britain but the article is titled Indian burn because that's the name familiar in the US. The etymologies for these names are obscure because they are generated in an organic way in playgrounds and only enter adult literature later. The claims that it's racist are fanciful false etymology like the complaints about words like "crowbar" and "picnic".

  Andrew🐉(talk) 06:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)