Talk:Labour Party (UK)

"Centre-left"

Isnt it time to change this to something aligned with reality? Many sources quote Labour being at the very least centrist if not centre - right / right wing. Frankly I can't think of anything centre - left about Labour anymore as they are largely against public spending and are trending toward austerity listening to Reeves. Feedtherooks (talk) 14:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The current sources are largely all 2015.

Today, a very large amount of sources quote Labour as a centre-right party or centre party, specifically calling starmer right leaning in various terms. Labour has also said they won't be raising income tax, may do public spending cuts and they are welcoming Tory MPs to join while not allowing Diane Abbott etc back even though she was cleared.

Furthermore, Starmer constantly talks about how Labour has changed economically and one of the deflectors to Labour from the Tories even said he did it because the Tories aren't centre-right anymore.

Quite simply I think centre-left is just inaccurate now in any context, they don't sit in the centre left of British politics, global politics, internal labour politics or indeed any interpretation at all of politics that I can see. Starmer has even been making right wing social statements such as the recent trans comments. are current sources saying centrist and "very much centre-right". Even describing their last govt, it is commonly accepted that Blair etc were centre-right. Compared to Corbyn's Labour, Starmer is quick to tell you that Labour has politically changed and he means shifted righrwards. Labour is also also openly taking in right - far right Tories and not allowing in certain suspended Labour members who have been cleared like Diane Abbott. One of the Tories who defected to Labour even said they did it because the Tories aren't Centre-right anymore (implying Labour is).

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/labour-starmer-faces-problems-in-government-policy-centre-right-gaza-climate-crisis/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/05/labour-can-be-proud-of-its-local-election-results-but-theres-still-a-way-to-go

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/opinion-keir-starmer-may-sleepy-112843015.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADPgHtTmV56meuPWynmb9eBzHuCAKFoSFI_gfPO7ncadZTsu6uS1YdHjIxdkb-mPHJgiGBQwnAkJlAaRz243bfRopv3_D_dod_veL32zKuBU9pZI9-H9blEBs_qDiQpC_aPRr8TvyID5IdsurRC0QfOa9raWq942AkzgqInw73Nr

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/11/rightwing-media-reaction-keir-starmer-labour-speech-murdoch

https://eastangliabylines.co.uk/politics/political-punches-exchanged-between-starmer-and-sunak-over-suffolk-tory-defector/

https://le.ac.uk/politics/research/research-projects/previous-research-projects/competing-on-the-centre-right

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/more-than-100-business-leaders-back-uks-opposition-labour-party-before-vote-2024-05-28/

https://www.politico.eu/article/keir-starmer-labour-party-prime-minister-british-elections/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/27/top-tory-mp-defects-to-labour-in-fury-at-nhs-crisis Feedtherooks (talk) 14:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

One of the sources you list calls Starmer centre-left. Several say that Labour has moved "towards the centre". Several say Labour is trying to appeal to centre-right voters. None of them, except one letter to the editor which is not a high quality source, call the Labour Party centre-right. The ideology of the Labour Party is also something covered by academic and book sources, which are generally better than news sources and blogs. Ralbegen (talk) 17:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Who has written a book on the current Labour Party? That doesn't make sense. 91.125.23.152 (talk) 18:54, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Also that's not even true. The first two specifically say centre right for a start. Also the policies are clearly centre right and a lot of them talk about the push for centre right voters.

The one you are referring to, the Politico article, calls him centre left and then spends the entire time explaining how he attacks the left.

The current sources saying centre left are not academic or book sources. I also strongly disagree given politics changes rapidly. And books on post 97 labour typically call Labour a centrist - centre right party anyway! 91.125.23.152 (talk) 18:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The first source—an opinion piece, not news or analysis—talks about "suspicions that under Starmer, Labour is now on the centre-right"—it does not assert that the party is, it says that some voters might think that and that's why they're frustrated. The second one is a letter to an editor. The third one is an opinion piece that says Starmer "must pitch for business-friendly centre-Right votes"—not that he, or the party, is on the centre-right. The fourth one says "Leader writers at the centre-right Times noted that Starmer sounded like a prime minister-in-waiting". The fifth one is a quote from a defecting MP that you are projecting onto. The sixth one says "has moved towards the centre after veering left under his predecessor, Jeremy Corbyn" and does not mention the political right. The Politco article differentiates between the centre-left and the left wing, which is a normal distinction to make. The final article repeats the same quote from Poulter.

It's correct to look for secondary source coverage but search terms aren't enough: the sources have to actually support including something. None of these does. This is something which has been discussed to death on this page and the times I have done a survey of coverage—when Corbyn was leader and users were proposing a change to "left-wing" or "far-left"—it has been very clear that reliable sources do not consider the leadership of Tony Blair or Jeremy Corbyn to fundamentally alter the centre-left character of the Labour Party.

Doing a quick survey of scholarly works published during the current leadership we find those that characterise the Labour Party as centre-left:

A progressive politics of work for the age on unpeace

The Politics of Social Democracy (which includes Labour in a survey of the centre-left across different countries)

Melancholia and Anti-Populist Discourse: The Case of the British Labour Party

A New Dilemma of Social Democracy? The British Labour Party, the White Working Class and Ethnic Minority Representation

What does it mean to be pro-European? The case of the European centre-left and centre-right in Austria, Germany and the UK

This one is interesting, talking about Labour moving "to the right (towards the political centre)", which is widely attested, as moving to left left was under Corbyn. But there is not high quality sourcing available for either period indicating that the party's character as a whole has changed. I can't find any academic sources that refer to Labour as centre-right—only sources that talk about the centre-right of the party in the way that internal party spectrums are often discussed. This has been discussed to death: in 2005, 2006 (twice), 2007 (twice), 2008 (twice, 2010 (twice), 2011, 2012, 2014 (four times now), 2015, 2016 (three times), 2017 (twice), 2018 and 2019 (several times). There was an RfC in 2019 which concluded: "It is highly unlikely that any future RFC to change "centre-left" to "centre-left to left-wing", "left-wing", or any other label, will be successful, unless it can be shown that the consensus of reliable sources explicitly use the new proposed label. "Consensus of reliable sources" doesn't mean unanimity, but it doesn't mean a minority viewpoint, either. If only some sources use the new proposed label, that may support an attributed statement in the body, but not necessarily a statement in wiki-voice in the lead. If no sources use the new proposed label, then we certainly cannot use the new proposed label in wiki-voice. Guidance can be found at WP:DUE." Ralbegen (talk) 20:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I think this shows the inherent flaw in Wikipedia and main cause of the total inaccuracy. The current Labour Party in the Overton window of the post war consensus would be far right on the British spectrum, or alternatively if Labour is centre left then the Tories under Macmillan would be far left.

Doesnt make any sense. A party that vows to largely continue the policies of a right wing party without any pull left is not centre left under any definition. 91.125.23.152 (talk) 18:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

This is WP:OR. We need sources that call them centre-right, and it'd have to be significant. — Czello ^(music) 07:14, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

If this is social democracy then the social democracy article should be entirely rewritten to reflect the fact we now consider right-wing policies like austerity and tax cuts for rich people to be social democratic ideals. You can't have it both ways. I'm not even going to touch on the fact that democratic socialism is in the infobox, this one is self-explanatory to anyone with even a basic level of reading comprehension. Michail (blah) 11:05, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, though, this is WP:OR. Whatever description or term is used by reliable sources is what we use. — Czello ^(music) 11:59, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Also the sources mentioned determing it as "centre-left" are very outdated the latest one being from 2015. Takis S1 (talk) 11:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/labour-party-alignment

For the last 9 months it has been considered slightly right of center I believe placing them on centre to centre right or contre to centre left or just centre and historically left wing is the way. In fact the guardian says that the Lib Dems may be considered more left wing than labour. So in fact there are sources.

"Labour has insisted on sticking to an increasingly conservative economic script"

"the real relevance of the plans is what they say about the party’s willingness – in contrast to Labour – to confront the concentrated wealth and corporate power that drain the UK’s potential."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/10/lib-dems-progressive-mantle-robust-opposition-labour Takis S1 (talk) 11:54, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

This is all WP:OR or WP:SYNTH. None of these directly call Labour centre-right. — Czello ^(music) 12:19, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

One does indeed say that "Labour has insisted on sticking to an increasingly conservative economic script" economic conservatism can in no way be considered left of centre I say it should either be centre or centre right. Best case scenario Centre with left and centre left factions. Also for labour to be considered more right wing than the lib dems (which are considered centre to centre left) that at least implies labour is centre. Takis S1 (talk) 15:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

That's still WP:OR. If it doesn't explicitly say centre-right, we don't either. — Czello ^(music) 15:04, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

https://unherd.com/newsroom/labour-is-now-the-centre-right-party/

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/labour-is-taking-the-centre-right-from-the-tories-3088606

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/06/05/in-the-uk-the-left-wing-of-the-labour-party-accuses-keir-starmer-of-a-purge_6673798_4.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv22n56e3z6o

Those are Sources That do in fact call them straight up centre right but if somebody is economically conservative can he still be centre left? because youre basically saying yes. Takis S1 (talk) 15:13, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Further Information.

https://unherd.com/newsroom/how-left-wing-is-labours-manifesto/

"By most accounts, the 2024 manifesto will sit on the Right of this ideological ledger." Takis S1 (talk) 15:17, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Currently, I cant see any solid argument for Labour being centre-left and many that say it isn't. Takis S1 (talk) 14:09, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

It's also worth pointing out that we typically don't change a party's political position based on their current leader, as that tends to be a case of WP:RECENTISM. We didn't change it from "centre-left" to simply "left-wing" under Jeremy Corbyn, for example, despite there being a noticeable shift in policy. — Czello ^(music) 14:20, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Valid point but the left party of the party is actively being purged therefore the push to the right is more unnatural and with more parties trying to catch the disatisfied left it may aswell be considered permenant. Takis S1 (talk) 14:26, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Also since Blair the party has been more or less been going right Corbyn was an outlier. Takis S1 (talk) 14:29, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not it's permanent remains to be seen; we can't assume that per WP:CRYSTAL. I'd be inclined to say that such a defining shift can only really be determined after a few years in power, such as come the next election.

As for the second point, sources largely called Labour centre-left until very recently, which includes under Brown and Miliband. Corbyn was just further left. — Czello ^(music) 14:47, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Wait wasnt the page changed to add "Democratic Socialism" as an ideology during the corbyn years? Takis S1 (talk) 15:08, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can recall it predated his leadership – I think we've always had democratic socialism and social democracy (one source is from 2000, the other is from 2015 but before Corbyn became leader). — Czello ^(music) 15:11, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Interesting I agree with that and we will see in the following years especially because of the very high possibility of a labour government. Takis S1 (talk) 15:21, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I think that there are plenty if not a large consensus of sources that have started talking about its shift to the right and even one that says that they have become more right wing than the Liberal democrats (or more that the lib dems are "pushing the proggresive mantle") https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/10/lib-dems-progressive-mantle-robust-opposition-labour

Therefore, calling them centre left is definantly wrong the majority of labour's policies are right of centre and with constant attacks on the left by Keir Starmer the party should be considered at least Centrist.

"By most accounts, the 2024 manifesto will sit on the Right of this ideological ledger."

https://unherd.com/newsroom/how-left-wing-is-labours-manifesto/(14 June, 2024)

"Starmer left-wing purge row is not dying down"

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv22n56e3z6o(30 May 2024)

"The British public is increasingly willing to place its trust in a centre-right party with no major spending commitments, which is looking to make Brexit work and which aims to reduce the national debt over the next parliament."

https://unherd.com/newsroom/labour-is-now-the-centre-right-party/(1 September, 2023)

All these sources are not dated. Takis S1 (talk) 14:23, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

The only people calling labour centre-left in 2024 are far right sources and confused people 91.125.23.152 (talk) 19:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Not sure how relevant this is, but The Political Compass website rates the current Labour manifesto as centre-right. G-13114 (talk) 16:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Although it's difficult to place them as their economic message is incredibly vague, I think describing a party that is advocating for the renationalisation of railways and GB Energy etc as centre-right is a bit silly personally. I'm also very doubtful that any reliable source (academic source ideally) would explicitly categorise them as centre-right as well. I do think the democratic socialist label in the infobox is a bit dated though Michaeldble (talk) 18:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@G-13114 Not at all relevant as Political Compass's election charts are notoriously out of touch. — Czello ^(music) 21:43, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Out of touch with whom? 81.153.140.220 (talk) 05:59, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

@81.153.140.220 Reality. — Czello ^(music) 06:56, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Centre-left is such a vague term, it should be taken out. Note that while Google books returns lots of books about far-right politics, there's nothing about centre-left politics. The center left depends on what the writer means. That's why there are endless arguments about this field for hundreds of parties.

Since our determination is based on the ideology, it's redundant information.

Also, there is a distinction between party ideology and policy. While ideology is like a flagstaff, policies shift according to the prevailing winds. With the normalization of far right politics in recent years, the policies of all parties has shifted right, but the parties' relative position to each other has remained the same.

We can see that in the Political Compass. Most normal people taking the test find themselves in the bottom left quadrant, while all major parties place in the upper right. TFD (talk) 20:46, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I propose the best consesus could be

Centre to Centre-Right [1] [2] [3]

Factions:

Centre-left

Left-Wing [4] Takis S1 (talk) 10:21, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Centre-left to left-wing is more ideal 2A0A:EF40:E4A:E101:24E5:C88D:EFF9:B87 (talk) 19:36, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm actually quite shocked some people think Labour are a centre-right party. Their recent pledges look like a centre-left party to me. 2A0A:EF40:E4A:E101:24E5:C88D:EFF9:B87 (talk) 19:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

how? Like genuinly list me one policy that is centre left. Even Keir Starmer said that part of his economic program is based off bideonomics Takis S1 (talk) 21:15, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

no the leftists are minor factions nowadays the general consesus is centrist or centre-left even here Takis S1 (talk) 21:14, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

We should follow reliable sources' descriptions of the party. Cherrypicking a mixture of letters, pieces on the leader (not the party) and essentially conducting original research are very poor practice. If you wish to challenge this long-standing and well-reasoned consensus, you'll need to open an RFC. Domeditrix (talk) 17:25, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

@Feedtherooks Yes, Labour is clearly Right Wing, why is this even a question? 109.170.181.75 (talk) 14:14, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely. The party is centre to centre-right, or just centre right. I've already done a thing supporting it so I'll restate that here, ommitting the irrelevant parts.

Considering their selection for their candidates this election, and the fact that they self-sabotaged Corbyn (source) and kicked him out of the party (source), it cannot be said that they are centre-left to left-wing at all, barely even centre left at that point.

What a party says itself in its manifesto is often not reliable, and often they do not reflect the ideology of the party itself. There must be third party reliable sources saying it is centre-left. I have not seen any reliable third party sources saying the Labour party is centre-left, from after the expulsion of Corbyn, which are about it being centre-left (not just saying it within it briefly through circular sourcing). I have three saying it's centre-right. 1 2 3. (Note sources 2 and 3 are opinion, though are still of value while adjusting for that).

Additionally, the party itself says it is pro-business (source), which is mutually exclusive with being pro-worker; centre-left politics is pro-worker first and foremost, within a welfarist democratic capitalist system.

I do not see how they are still centre-left at all when they have shifted right on the economy (Blair notoriously gave up to the right mostly on economics), on immigration, on the EU, on trans rights, etc.}

Additionaly, the party under Starmer is, on almost all if not all issues, to the right of '''Joe Biden''', who is a centre to centre-left social liberal. And, in the UK, the Liberal Democrats are to the left of Labour on all issues, '''especially''' social and foreign policy.

So, I do not think it is centre-left at all. A Socialist Trans Girl 10:27, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

A LabourList column went on to suggest Labour's "right-ward march continues" I think it's significant, theyre clearly trying to appeal to a more Third Way centrist approach, obviously continuing in the spirit of Blair, furthermore there is evidence to suggest that Labour have subsumed the more reactionary, markedly right wing elements of Blue Labour into their program, as several news outlets have suggested. There is clearly ideological overlap between the Blairite wing of the party (who are now government) and Blue Labour who've clearly influenced Starmer on economy and social/cultural issues. They are "socialist" (or social democratic) in name only. Many social democratic parties in Europe, have exhibited similiar attitudes, like Olaf Scholz and François Hollande. Also, "left wing conservatism" exists, as a syncretic ideology, it is clear from the outset that Labour's current leadership has synthesized ideas from Blue Labour, Blairism and "small c" conservatism into whatever their current ideological platform is. Only time will tell how Starmer's premiership turns out to be but discussion should be had about their current ideological character before more edits are made.

https://labourlist.org/2023/09/labour-shadow-cabinet-reshuffle-who-what-means/

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/has-keir-starmer-found-the-sweet-spot-in-british-politics/

https://unherd.com/2020/09/keir-starmer-a-true-conservative/

https://www.economist.com/britain/2020/09/26/keir-starmers-rather-conservative-message-to-britain 2A00:23C5:EDB1:1:38BC:FAE2:BF2:3654 (talk) 16:47, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

If any change were to be made, the change should be to label the party as “centre”.

But, to be perfectly honest, I think we should wait to see what Starmer’s government actually does. Putting VAT on private school fees, investing in green energy, and privatising rail networks DO NOT strike me as the acts of a centre-right party. DWMemories (talk) 14:47, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

They could be. Center right government have certainly nationalized companies and been pro-environment, while center left government have privatized and harmed the environment. TFD (talk) 16:00, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I get your point but I still don’t support a change. Especially with Angela Rayner as the Deputy PM (who identifies as party of the party’s soft left).

Give it another few months and we’ll have a much better idea of what the now party stand for. DWMemories (talk) 21:27, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Just seen Czello posted this on another talk page. This discussion needs to end.

-

No consensus to change the political position and moratorium on further discussions around their political position until January 2025. DWMemories (talk) 21:34, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Ideology in the infobox

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Following the recent productive discussion about democratic socialism in the infobox, I believe we should address what was not addressed in that discussion; neoliberalism and third way in the infobox. I support it having neoliberalism and third way in the infobox.

Please begin messages with either Support including neoliberalism or Oppose including neoliberalism, as well as either Support including third way or Oppose including third way. Or just comment, or some other opinion/ideology (not socialism though, already have consensus to remove that.). A Socialist Trans Girl 08:43, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Neoliberalism is the economic paradigm which governing parties across the political spectrum have followed for the last forty years. Even leftist parties, such as Syriza, and neofascist parties, such as Meloni's Brothers of Italy, have governed as neoliberals.

If we follow your suggestion, then every party would be labelled as neoliberal. However, despite similarities in government, political parties retain distinct ideologies.

Third Way is ambiguous because it literally means a position that is an alternative to two established ones. What those two positions and the alternative are is however unclear. Both Fascists and Blairites for example presented themselves as a third way. TFD (talk) 09:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Wrong, Fascists are Third Positonists, Third Way is a liberal Ideology.

Third Way on The Polcompball Wiki RegierungDavidlands1852 (talk) 10:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, it's a mostly economic position.

Do you have an alternative suggestion for what ideology it should be? A Socialist Trans Girl 10:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Support including third way,

Oppose including neoliberalism RegierungDavidlands1852 (talk) 10:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Aristotle Kallis and Norberto Bobbio among other leading experts use the term "third way" to describe the fascist attempt to position themselves between liberal individualism and socialism,[1] which incidentally is what Blair attempted to do. Note also that Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr. saw centrism as an alternative to the extremes of communism and fascism, making it a form of third way as well.

Any party in a three or multiple party system can be described as a third way. So Nigel Farage is a third way between Labour's socialism and the Tory's support for traditional social hierarchy. A roofer who doesn't want to be taxed by Labour or looked down upon by Tory aristocrats can find a third way with Reform. TFD (talk) 10:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, this is WP:OR, you need to provide sources. I’ve already provided one academic source that argues Labour are anti-neoliberal. Kowal2701 (talk) 10:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Here's some sources on it (use as appropriate):

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2023/08/09/this-country-does-not-need-a-neoliberal-labour-party/

https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/fass/resources/sociology-online-papers/papers/jessop-from-thatcherism-to-new-labour.pdf

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/ed-miliband-new-labour/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0745627412

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3676360

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/030857590803200409

https://jacobin.com/2020/01/third-way-democratic-socialism-tony-blair-bill-clinton-uk

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230554573_3

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10379456/

https://www.manchesterhive.com/display/9781526137883/9781526137883.00017.xml A Socialist Trans Girl 11:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Tbf lots of sources support this. I'd support Third Way, since neoliberalism is within that Kowal2701 (talk) 11:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Forgot about social liberalism

Okay uhh I forgot about social liberalism. I support adding social liberalism. This is just a new seperate section to discuss social liberalism and sources for and against it, I guess. Sorry for forgetting it at the start. A Socialist Trans Girl 11:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose since this is within 'Social democracy', the convention appears to have gotten much stricter around how many ideologies to have in the parameter Kowal2701 (talk) 11:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@User:Czello I don't think the previous discussion had that much discussion regarding other ideologies, it was mostly about the removal of democratic socialism, which I think we largely got done with with consensus on removing democratic socialism as the main goal, which happened. There's still a lot more discussion on the other ideologies to be had I believe. Could we please re-open the discussion? A Socialist Trans Girl 12:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I counted five people who agreed with the closing consensus, which included users that were previously in support of additional labels being added. I'm going to have to disagree that there wasn't enough discussion around them - I saw a fair amount, which persistently had a lot of resistance to each label for different reasons. I think instead of re-opening that discussion we really need to be drawing the #Political_positions to a close now. — Czello ^(music) 12:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:Consensus can change, we should wait at least six months for more sources Kowal2701 (talk) 12:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree, I think there's a distinct chance more sources can appear six months from now. — Czello ^(music) 12:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

@Czello If I were to find sources not previously mentioned nor considered which support it, would that be grounds to re-opening it before the 6 months? A Socialist Trans Girl 04:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Sure. Again I'm not in charge here so don't take my word as authoritative if you think there's good reason to reopen the discussion. — Czello ^(music) 08:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

oki A Socialist Trans Girl 08:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

@Czello Okay. Discussion of other adding ideologies would be okay though since they weren't discussed nor mentioned in the consensus, right? A Socialist Trans Girl 12:24, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

If you want to open a new discussion to propose new ideologies (other than neoliberalism, Third Way, or social liberalism - as they were all covered by the previous discussion) then, sure. But remember it's all going to have to be thoroughly sourced and avoiding WP:OR or personal interpretation. Honestly, I think it'd be a wasted effort as I can't see the discussion developing further than it did, and I think people are exhausted from the last one - but hey, I don't WP:OWN this page. — Czello ^(music) 12:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, we reached a consensus that Labour is a social democratic party. Surely this means by definition that it is a centre-left party? Can we just remove the ‘under discussion’ tag from that bit of the infobox? KronosAlight (talk) 18:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

The political position is still under a separate discussion to the ideology, consensus will have to wait until that discussion is closed. Ideology and position don't go hand in hand. For instance, there are several partied labelled "Christian democratic" with labels spanning from "centre-left" to "centre-right to right-wing". Just be patient and wait for consensus. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 03:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

If a social democratic party is by definition center left, can you explain what additional information the field has for readers? Basically it is saying reliable sources categorize Labour as social democratic and Wikipedia editors classify social democracy as center left. TFD (talk) 04:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

No, its a different thing. A Socialist Trans Girl 04:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I agreed that it was consensus, but expressed my disagreement with it. I would still support a new motion to add "Social liberalism", "Neoliberalism", or "Third Way". – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 17:11, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Broad-church "social democracy" perfectly suits the Labour Party. Anything else, factional, generic, neologistic or journalistic, like "democratic socialism", "social liberalism", "progressivism", "third way" and "neoliberalism" would not be improvements for the ideology parameter of the infobox. --Checco (talk) 17:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

@Checco We don't need to replace socdem with it, we can have them alongside it. A Socialist Trans Girl 04:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Then, those additions would be redundant or misplaced. --Checco (talk) 19:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

@Checco huh? how? parties can have multiple ideologies, I don't understand A Socialist Trans Girl 23:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any sources that there are multiple ideologies in the Labour Party? As I see it, there is agreement on ideology but differences on how they should be applied. Specifically, there is disagreement about the extent to which collective control and/or ownership of the economy should be applied.

While the Liberals, Conservatives and lastly Labour all implemented social liberal policies, there's no evidence that they adopted liberal ideology. LIberals advocated these policies on the basis that they would empower individuals so there would be a level playing field in capitalist competition. I don't know who in the Labour Party ever explained it that way. TFD (talk) 02:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces The discussion is for broader discussion of sources for and against.

And, I'm not sure what you mean; Social liberalism is a type of liberalism. From Liberalism;

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property and equality before the law. Liberals espouse various and often mutually warring views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion, constitutional government and privacy rights.

A Socialist Trans Girl 04:37, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Social liberalism is a branch of liberalism emerged toward the end of the 19th century advocating social welfare in order to help people realize freedom. The pinnacle was the People's budget of 1906. Liberals then devised a comprehensive welfare system which was implemented by the Labour Party after WWII and continued by successive Conservative and Labour governments until the late 70s, after which both parties pursued neo-liberal policies.

The question is whether these period shifts in policy by all three parties represents a shift in ideology. Does the UK have a liberal, conservative and socialist party or does it have three neo-liberal parties which fifty years ago would have been social liberal parties and fifty years before that would have been classical liberal parties?

From a Communist perspective, all three parties are liberal and always have been. Any differences are cosmetic. While I agree somewhat with that approach, reliable sources distinguish between different parties by describing their ideologies differently. TFD (talk) 12:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces Sorry for late response.

You said there's no evidence that they adopted liberal ideology with a lowercase L rather than uppercase, which I interpreted as refering to liberalism and not Liberalism (the ideology of the Liberal Party). Which did you mean? please clarify.

To answer your question, I'd say it has an economically liberal conservative party (tories), a third way social liberal party (labour), and a social democratic party which used to be social liberal but has shifted left in recent years.

And, may I ask, why does the Communist perspective here matter? A Socialist Trans Girl 05:22, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I was unaware there was an ideology called capital-L Liberalism.

As I mentioned above, I think that you are confusing ideology with policies. While liberals pioneered modern social welfare policies in the UK, parties of all stripes adopted them for various reasons. In the modern world, only U.S. style libertarians have argued that the state should provide no form of social safety net.

I brought up the Communist perspective, because it conflates the ideologies of their opponents, based on their shared policies. Mind you, so does the far right, which considers Joe Biden and antifa working towards a common purpose.

The party line was that social welfare programs should be opposed because they strengthen the capitalist state and therefore weaken the working class. Therefore their advocates were effectively liberal. Is that your argument? TFD (talk) 12:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

For a definition of socialism, I use the Historical Dictionary of Socialism which summarizes various defintions on pp. 1-2.[2] Note that the definition allows a wide range of action, and is not limited to say Stalin in 1922, Labour in 1945 or Kim Jong un in 2024. Also, the assumptions of socialism are different from those of conservatism or liberalism. What definition do you use? TFD (talk) 18:50, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Social liberalism nor anything else should be added unless it is stated to be the ideology of the party by reliable third-party sources. Helper201 (talk) 13:51, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Add socialism as a historical ideology?

before new labour, the party was more about actual socialist ideas and not just centre left democracy. it should be added to the infobox ManU9827 (talk) 17:06, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

More of Democratic socialism maybe in theory "socialism" but it was said so in a broad manner not in an overthrow the current regime and establish a communist utopia manner. Takis S1 (talk) 20:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

labour blocked investigations into child rape cases in oldham seven times

ive added this to the oldham council page and am wondering if i should add a single line somewhere on this page mentioning this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldham_Council#Controversy_around_Child_Sexual_Exploitation NotQualified (talk) 22:11, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

It is probably not significant to the party overall. Is it an issue that the national leadership has been confronted with? TFD (talk) 22:27, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

no more regional to manchester, i say it warrants a one line mention cause the case was pretty massive and 100s of kids were raped. NotQualified (talk) 22:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Policy says that the significance of any information depends on its coverage in reliable sources. I don't remember for example the topic being discussed in the recent election. TFD (talk) 23:26, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

labour exists beyond just the recent election. regardless, it has been covered by the BBC, the telegraph, sky news, etc. all of which are linked in the oldham article as references. NotQualified (talk) 23:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Lots of stories get coverage, you have to show that it has been significant to the Labour Party. Did the police investigate Labour HQ in London? Is Keir Starmer under investigation? TFD (talk) 23:40, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

right but due weight now come on, a political party blocking investigations into mass child rape is a big deal NotQualified (talk) 01:38, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

See Balancing aspects: "An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject."

It's not what you or I consider significant, but what the sources do. Reasonable people will of course disagree on what weight sources should provide, which is why the policy was developed. If you think the sources are neglectful, you have to take it up with them, or get the policy changed. TFD (talk) 02:02, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

im proposing literally a single line to be added here NotQualified (talk) 02:21, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

This insinuates that the central Labour party had some part in those decisions, which is untrue. Although the local Labour party was absolutely responsible for repeatedly voting against an independent investigation, there is nothing to show the national party was involved in those decisions. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:13, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

right, so i should post this in local labour party pages (assuming they exist?) NotQualified (talk) 00:30, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

You've already posted it to the Oldham Council page, which is the closest thing the local Labour party would have to a page. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 08:39, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

okay thanks, good to know. NotQualified (talk) 14:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2024

Add Centrism to the ideology section with Social Democracy and (elements of) Democratic Socialism. I'd posit that there is enough evidence in written and verbal statements from the party leadership since 1994 (barring 2010-19) that centrism is the guiding ideology of the party. PrinceOfTheAppleTowns (talk) 09:59, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: We've had extensive discussions on this recently and there is a moratorium on further discussions around their political position until January 2025. — Czello ^(music) 10:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Ideology

Keir Starmer moved the Labor Party to move from social democracy to Socialism. Generally, Keir has also exhibited authorian tendences by restricting free speech and jailing people simply based on their opinions. If I were in the UK and I said this, I would likely be jailed . The political position of the party should be changed to left wing at the least, consider making it far left. User73663828 (talk) 04:23, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't that mean Starmer had moved to the right? TFD (talk) 16:02, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely not, for a start what the police is doing isn't authoritarianism but stopping racist rioters, even if it was authoritarian, socialism is not necessarily authoritarian and authoritarianism isn't necessarily socialist and to claim so is extremely ignorant. Third of all, Labour has been actively shifting to the right in recent years, it actually bewilders me that the Wikipedia page for Labour doesn't actually list it as a centrist or right wing party due to their support of austerity measures and social conservatism on issues like trans rights Locked101 (talk) 23:34, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

@User73663828 What?? Starmer moved the party to the right, y'know, with the corbyn thing and such. And authoritarianism is right-wing, as left-wing politics opposes hierarchy. A Socialist Trans Girl 01:45, 22 August 2024 (UTC)