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[1] "Reform UK Party Limited was founded in November 2018 as an “entrepreneurial political start-up”. Mr Farage owns 53 per cent of the company." "'But with 115,00 paying supporters with no voting power to influence policy, Reform has admitted its structure might not be sustainable in the long-term - something that could change after this year’s election."
@DeFacto You are right about the second source, but although the first doesn't mention the number of shares I was about to source that when you reverted. It clearly mentions Reform UK ltd."What is Reform UK?
Reform UK Party Limited was founded in November 2018 as an “entrepreneurial political start-up”. Mr Farage owns 53 per cent of the company." "Meanwhile, Mr Tice has a minority holding of around one-third of shares, and chief executive Paul Oakden and party treasurer Mehrtash A’zami each hold less than 7 per cent." and "But with 115,00 paying supporters with no voting power to influence policy, Reform has admitted its structure might not be sustainable in the long-term - something that could change after this year’s election."
Shareholders: {https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/sunak-is-in-farages-pocket-peter-kellner-polling/] "The key thing is that Reform UK is not a conventional political party. It is a registered company, “Reform UK Party Limited”. Eight of the 15 issued shares in the company belong to Farage. Tice has five of the other seven. (Michael Crick, Farage’s unauthorised biographer, tells me that Tice confirms Farage is still the majority shareholder.) Farage has the sole legal right “to appoint and remove directors”. Tice leads the party, but Farage owns it." Doug Wellertalk10:44, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Financial Times doesn't number the shares either[3] quoting again the percentage owned. "Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email licensing@ft.com to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found here.
But as Farage owns 53 per cent of Reform UK Ltd, according to company filings, he is able to remove Tice as a director or take the decision to unilaterally dissolve the organisation, marking him as the party’s ultimate kingmaker. Tice has a minority holding of around one-third of all shares, while chief executive Paul Oakden and party treasurer Mehrtash A’zami each hold less than 7 per cent." But Ben Habib did say " he conceded that a private company, where control is vested in two people, was likely to be unsustainable in the long term." Note that FT article is before the election.
The Conservative post [4] "The Reform UK Party Ltd. has 15 shares. The shareholders are Nigel Farage, who holds 8, and Richard Tice, who holds 5. Chief Executive Paul Oakden and Party Treasurer Mehrtahs A’Zami hold 1 share each."
This is all public knowledge and a key aspect of the party and admitted by their websites. How can this be a BLP violation. Do I really have to go to RSN? Or tag the article as NPOV? Doug Wellertalk11:02, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The first source didn't support any of the three sentences it was used for. If you think it does, please quote the part of that source that supports each of the following:
"Reform UK Party Ltd." (which is not the same as "Reform UK Party Limited")
That it was renamed to that
That it has 15 shares
That Farage holds 8 shares
That Tice holds 5 shares
That Oakden holds 1 share
That A'Zami holds 1 share
Please research a wide cross-section of RSes, and if you think the consensus amongst them is that the structure of the party is notable, then summarise that into a balanced and impartial couple of sentences, and bring them here, with the supporting sources, to see if there is a consensus to include them. -- DeFacto (talk). 11:07, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I missed the fact that the statement by Habib was folloed by "Tice noted the party was likely to change its structure eventually but did not consider the move urgent as members input, though welcome, was not always necessary. “Overall advisers advise, directors decide,”
You are nit picking about Ltd and Limited. Their website says Limited. Bloomberg doesn't mention details, just says "Reform Uk Party Ltd was founded in 2018. The company's line of business includes membership organization established to promote the interests of a national, State, and local political party and candidate"https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/company/1974888D:LN?embedded-checkout=true] Again, Ltd and Limited mean the same. There is NO doubt at all about the company status. It's mentioned in many sources.
The European says "The key thing is that Reform UK is not a conventional political party. It is a registered company, “Reform UK Party Limited”. Eight of the 15 issued shares in the company belong to Farage. Tice has five of the other seven. (Michael Crick, Farage’s unauthorised biographer, tells me that Tice confirms Farage is still the majority shareholder.) Farage has the sole legal right “to appoint and remove directors”. Tice leads the party, but Farage owns it."[5]
The Guardian:[6] "The tensions go back to the formation in March 2019 of the Brexit party, which was renamed Reform UK in 2021. Determined to avoid the rebellions that had disrupted the Ukip party, Farage and others created a company that he could control rather than a conventional political party that had to be managed. "Farage owns a majority of shares in Reform UK Party Ltd, which is registered with Companies House. While four officers are named on the register, Farage is the only one named there as a “person with significant control”."
@Doug Weller, the problem I had is that what was written could not be verified from the sources that were cited to support it, and thus it contravened the WP:BLPRS section, at least, in WP:BLP.
If this discussion about the party's structure is covered by a significant number of reliable sources, then it should probably be included in the article. But if it is included, it needs to comply Wikipedia policy, which the version I removed did not. -- DeFacto (talk). 22:37, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DeFacto But you knew that the Reform Party is a company, right? So your role should have been to fix it, not remove it hiding the fact proclaimed on every website owned by Reform. Yes, I took a link from the party's wikipedia page without a thorough check recalling that the details of share numbers existed but forgetting they were in the bylinetimes.com article I diidn't think there was an RS. But there was NO BLP violation in saying it's a company or that Farage is the main owner. You also claimed that sources did not back text even though they did.
This fact, one even discussed by Farage himself, should be in every article mentioning the party. It's unique and a very major difference from other parties. Are you going to help or hinder? Doug Wellertalk07:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Doug Weller, I am not here to fix your, or anyone else's breaches of BLP policy - see WP:BURDEN. However, if I come across a breach of it, I may choose to remove it per WP:BLPRESTORE, especially as in this case, where none of the sentences in the original were supported by the cited source.
The best strategy when adding content is to read it back, one sentence at a time, and check that a reader who has never heard of Farage or Reform, pehaps 10 year on, is able to fully verify each assertion from the cited source(s). And if there is a gap in verifiabilty, fill it. -- DeFacto (talk). 08:56, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DeFacto But it wasn't a breach of BLP policy as the basic statement, that the party is a limited company, is accurate. You could argue for removal as the source didn't fully support the claim the claim I guess, or tag it as a dubious source, or better yet as cn. A WP: BLP can only be contentious material about a living person, and the only thing wrong with my post was the share numbers, the sources backed the main factual statement that it is a limited company. Doug Wellertalk09:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Doug Weller, a breach is a breach, and the policy is clear on the options for dealing with a breach. It's better to ensure it's correct in the first place, or at least to graciously accept and address any good-faith challenge(s) made. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:18, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any BLP violation, and the issue is very notable (indeed, far more notable than "a couple of sentences"). I see nothing wrong with the sourcing and I would restore the material. Black Kite (talk)09:54, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is notable and should be included. I've reverted the removal and added a source which specifically states the number of shares held by each shareholder. TarnishedPathtalk10:11, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In reverting, you should, per WP:BLPRESTORE, have made sure the reasons for the removal were fixed. The first part of the first sentence still isn't sourced, so I have tagged it. -- DeFacto (talk). 22:55, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TarnishedPath, Have you ever read WP:CONSENSUS? There it says of 'consensus', It involves an effort to address editors' legitimate concerns through a process of compromise while following Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. So policy cannot be ignored (such as WP:BLPRS which says Verifiability, says that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation; material not meeting this standard may be removed).
Also discussion, or even 'consensus' on this talkpage, cannot overrule WP:BLPRS, as WP:LOCALCONSENSUS say, Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope.
So that first part of the first sentence needs sourcing, regardless of your interpretaion of 'consensus', and must be deleted without that. -- DeFacto (talk). 08:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Misrepresenting my behaviour in two different discussions (as a means of attacking me, rather than the points I made) fails WP:WIAPA, which includes Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence as a form of personal attack. So, yes, you did make a personal attack. Now let's not diverge from this topic any further, please, especially as all the content in question has now been replaced by fully-source stuff that does not contravene BLP. -- DeFacto (talk). 13:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's obvious too. Why would I go there with such a clear-cut contravention? Stuff needs sourcing and it wasn't. Is that what you were thinking? -- DeFacto (talk). 13:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Not sure why these are only categories, there being no mention in the article at all, but I doubt 'English libertarians' and 'Christian libertarians' are appropriate (and, if they are, then reference them, but then that usually is within articles, not just in categories) - he's fascist, regardless of whether people want to include that here despite there being lots of references for it (and, oh, he's currently instigating riots... which is totally libertarian, or not...) - really wish people would stop misusing it for its opposite... 92.18.126.226 (talk) 00:43, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, the statement that "At the 2014 EP election, UKIP won the most seats in the UK, pressuring David Cameron to call the 2016 EU membership referendum" is hilarious but also wildly misleading.
The second part of the lead section detailing Farage's election results mixes domestic and European elections, which is obscured by the bizarre abbreviation of European Parliament to EP, resulting in wildly misleading sentences like "At the 2014 EP election, UKIP won the most seats in the UK".
EP is not a common abbreviation for European Parliament in the UK (the EP disambiguation pages lists over a hundred meanings) and as the quoted sentence is sandwiched between sentences about the general election (the one that most people have heard of), it seems a deliberate attempt to imply that UKIP have ever won a domestic election - or at best, to hide the fact that they've never won a single seat.
Obviously, I propose removing the EP abbreviation, which I think most people assume is a type of record, and separating the domestic from European election results.
(This is presumably related to the fact that the UKIP Wikipedia page [UKIP] lead is full of unsourced claims like the fantastic general election results they got in 2013 and 2015 - how on earth was this allowed?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moubliezpas (talk • contribs) 11:08, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct that EP is a WP:NEOLOGISM that simply isn't used by anyone, and I've changed that. However I see nothing wrong with putting the facts in chronological order that he lost in general elections and his party did better in European elections. The page David Cameron, for example, doesn't separate elections/referendums by which he succeeded in, and not. Unknown Temptation (talk) 22:52, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]