Talk:Homosexuality in ancient Greece

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2021 and 8 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Keithh5678.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 22:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Active vs Passive Participant?

From the article: "Greek society did not distinguish sexual desire or behavior by the gender of the participants, but rather by the role that each participant played in the sex act, that of active penetrator or passive penetrated. Within the traditions of pederasty, active/passive polarization corresponded with dominant and submissive social roles: the active (penetrative) role was associated with masculinity, higher social status, and adulthood, while the passive role was associated with femininity, lower social status, and youth."

I have been seeing these claims for decades. I was even taught this at school. Yet nobody ever provides an original source for these claims. The article is citing the Oxford Classical Dictionary, which does mention this, but it does not provide a source for these claims. The surrounding sources it uses for the tangential claims it makes, like Aristotle's Politics, don't mention anything about this stuff either. So, where are these claims coming from? Can anyone provide a single Ancient Greek text showing that the penetrated party was viewed as submissive or inferior or unmasculine or anything like that? Without direct evidence stating otherwise, these claims seem like projections of modern perceptions of gender performativity. Noxteryn (talk) 13:16, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Erastes and Eromenos: The Ancient Greek Terminology Implied Mentor-Mentored Relationship, Not Sexual Bonding

I am questioning the accuracy of anformation on a Wikipedia Page, full of biased secondary sources and obvious mistranslations of ancient Greek Texts

The whole conclusion of this page is based on obvious misinterpretations of ancient Greek texts

The relationship between erastes and eromenos in Sparta serves as a noteworthy illustration of the cultural values attached to such mentorship in ancient Greece. Erastes-eromenos relationships in Sparta were expected to be devoid of any sexual undertones, and any instances of sexual behavior between the two were deemed reprehensible, an abomination, akin to incestuous behavior and were banned.

"The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers (erastes) to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other."

-Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians 2.13

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0210:text=Const.+Lac.:chapter=2:section=13

Before that part Xenophon said:

"[12]I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys (pederasty), since this matter also has a bearing on education."

In his work, Xenophon addresses the topic of love with boys, which he refers to as "παιδικῶν ἐρώτων" (paedikōn erōtōn) in Greek, a compound word meaning "lover of boys." However, it is important to note that Xenophon's use of this term did not imply any sexual connotation, but rather referred to a loving mentorship relationship between a mentor (erastēs) and a mentored individual (eromenos).

In fact, Xenophon explicitly states that any sexual behavior in this "pederastic" relationship is considered "an abomination," equivalent to incest. This clarification demonstrates Xenophon's belief that "pederasty", as he understood it, was solely an educational and mentorship practice, rather than a sexual one. Therefore, it is crucial to acknowledge the distinction between Xenophon's interpretation of "pederasty" and the modern connotation of the term, which is typically associated with sexual relationships between older men and young boys.

The texts clearly state that Erastes-Eromenos relationships in ancient Athens and Sparta were characterized as non-sexual, and instead were seen as a form of mentoring or friendship similar to that between a father and son

"Thus, then, as it seems, you will lay down the law in the city that we are founding, that the lover (erastes/mentor) may kiss and pass the time with and touch the beloved (eromenos/mentored) as a father would a son, for honorable ends, if he persuade him. But otherwise he must so associate with the objects of his care that there should never be any suspicion of anything further,"

Plato, Republic 3.403b

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D3%3Asection%3D403b

I explain more on my blog so i won't spam here how most of the stuff on this page are completely inaccurate.

https://genes-of-the-ancients.blogspot.com/2023/04/the-myth-of-openly-ancient-greek.html Itisme3248 (talk) 05:27, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The whole point of wikipedia is to represent the consensus of reliable secondary sources. If you think that the majority of secondary sources disagree with this article, then please provide those sources. If you just think that the majority of classicists are misinterpreting the evidence, then you are going to need to get reliable sources, not just your blog, to start publishing your arguments, before Wikipedia starts to report on them. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 11:42, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is in quite poor shape. It relies heavily on a few secondary sources without providing primary greek references to the claims in the body. A lot of weasely claims about how widespread and accepted sexual pederasty was. And half the article is pure speculation about supposed homosexual relationships among famous figures. Academic fanfic is not encyclopedic 2601:1C0:CF01:3AE0:F8A0:5B22:3D6C:4A52 (talk) 06:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedians and News Media in general seem to love Academic fanfic. They might as well claim that Conspiracy books about the flat earth are a good source because they are published books and accepted by millions of people. Itisme3248 (talk) 00:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Heracles & Hylas

Love between adult men section could be extended to include Heracles and Hylas, if anyone can be bothered to research it and write it. I am lazy. 110.22.20.63 (talk) 00:18, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]