Talk:Israel

History scope

@DMH223344: Thanks for your interesting recent additions, they are not exactly within this article's scope however. The history of the state of Israel, like any history of any other state in the world, is about the history of its territory, and the history of that territory is the history of Palestine, not the history of Jews and Zionism in Europe. History of the territory of the state of Israel is that of the Crusaders, and Umayyad, Ayyubid, Mamluk and Ottoman caliphates; that of Zahir al-Umar in 1700s who built a proto-state in Palestine/Land of Israel, constructed Acre's fortifications, re-established Haifa, and made the region a major trading center of soap and cotton to Europe; that of the 1834 Peasants' revolt in Palestine which included Galilee and Jaffa. We should reconfigure our research accordingly, otherwise we risk wasting precious space, and unfilled gaps, with a sociopolitical study of European Jewry. Makeandtoss (talk) 18:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Good point, what about an abridged version of those additions? DMH223344 (talk) 18:58, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm guessing your issue is mostly with that full paragraph that was added? DMH223344 (talk) 18:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

My issue is long-standing and I have raised it several times here so don't worry; adding further material only worsens the current situation. I think it's outside of Israel's geographic scope and therefore not relevant to the article, not sure where we could move it elsewhere. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:02, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The history of and development of zionism is out of scope for an article on the modern state of israel? DMH223344 (talk) 19:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

It's interesting since Zionism was of course a European idea, which developed in a European context. Is the proposal to just introduce the arrival of Zionist settlers without context for why they came? DMH223344 (talk) 19:12, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Nothing beyond a sentence as simple as "amid rising European antisemitism", and other directly related things such as the 1882 Aliyah, Herzl's 1893 book, Zionist congress choices, in a concise way. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:20, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I think I can accept that. I would clarify that antisemitism is not seen in RS as the main driver for the development of Zionism. From Avineri: [Zionism] was a response to the challenges of liberalism and nationalism much more than a response merely to anti-Semitism DMH223344 (talk) 19:27, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

That's one guy's view, but is that the mainstream view? Levivich (talk) 19:39, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I would say so, although if you have sources which I should check please share (no need to fish out specific quotes unless you want to):

Shimoni: "In sum, itmay therefore be said that antisemitism may be regarded as acritical causal factor in the ignition of Zionism as a movement butis inadequate as a causal explanation of Zionism's genesis."

sternhell: "Liberal individualism suddenly appeared as a real threat to the continued Jewish people's existence as a homogenous and autonomous unit. Thus, Zionism was not only a reaction to increasing insecurity but also a Herderian, not to say tribal, response to the challenge of emancipation."

shlaim: "Modern Zionism was a phenomenon of the late nineteenth-century Europe. It had its roots in the failure of Jewish efforts to become assimilated in Western society, in the intensification of antisemitism in Europe, and in the parallel and not unrelated upsurge of nationalism. If nationalism posed a problem to the Jews by identifying them as an alien and unwanted minority, it also suggested a solution: self-determination for the Jews in a state of their own in which they would constitute a majority."

Stanislawski: "But once more, it is essential to understand that the fundamental cause of the emergence of modern Jewish nationalism was the rise, on the part of Jews themselves, of new ideologies that applied the basic tenets of modern nationalism to the Jews, and not a response to persecution."

Rabkin: "The historians of Zionism emphasize that the founders of the movement were assimilated Jews. Avineri writes:" at which point he quotes the avineri quote I shared above along with it's surrounding context

Although possibly this is too detailed for an article on Israel rather than on Zionism. DMH223344 (talk) 20:40, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't mean to pick nits, but it seems that, e.g., Shimoni, Sternhell, and Shlaim (say that three times fast!) are saying antisemitism was not the only factor, but it was still a main factor, at least equal to nationalism and liberalism. Avineri, Stanislawski, and I guess Rabkin, are saying it was a less important factor than nationalism and liberalism. I think it would be OK for our purposes in this article to not have to say which were the more important factors, and just list them as causes/factors (antisemitism, nationalism, liberalism). Levivich (talk) 02:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

yup i agree, i never meant to say that antisemitism wasnt important. DMH223344 (talk) 15:41, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with this approach. What happened in Europe in the 19th/20th century is far more relevant to the history of the modern state of Israel than what happened in Palestine in the middle ages. The history of Israel is not, in my view, a history of the region, but rather a history of the state. By way of example, the history of the United States is not the history of North America, and when I look at United States#History, it seems to be the right balance between pre-colonization and post-colonization history. Same with Mexico#History. What the English are to US history, what the Spanish are to Mexican history, is what Zionists are to Israeli history: they're the settlers that created the state. They're basically the beginning of the history of the state. Levivich (talk) 19:35, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

What happened in Europe in the 19th/20th century is far more relevant to the history of the modern state of Israel than what happened in Palestine in the middle ages. Agree 100%. The history of modern Israel basically begins in Europe in the 19th century. nableezy - 19:39, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe I'm just not looking at enough sources, but I havent seen Zahir al-Umar or other of the topics discussed in any history of the state of israel DMH223344 (talk) 20:45, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, history of the state. What is a state? A state are a set of institutions governing a geographic area. What is the history of these institutions and geographic area? Few of them can be traced directly to Europe. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:49, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

The history of the state of Israel is what sources say the history of the state of Israel, and that largely begins with the Zionist movement in Europe in the 19th century. We have an article on the geographic area, it isn’t this one. nableezy - 14:21, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you demonstrate how RS say so, excluding Rubin's and other not very subjective works? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:22, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

A few sources:

• Routledge Handbook on Contemporary Israel (2022) TOC, Part One: Historical Overview, begins with Chapter 1: "Zionism Between Despair and Hope"
• Routledge Handbook of Modern Israel (2013) TOC (PDF), begins even later, in 1948
• Barry Rubin's Israel: An Introduction (2012) Chapter 2: History begins 4,000 years ago, and gets to Zionism by the end of the next page

I prefer Rubin's approach: a brief pre-history, then Zionism. Levivich (talk) 05:16, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Barry Rubin is an Israeli writer who is uncritical about Zionism, I wouldn't prioritize a single work and especially not his work. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:48, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Which sources do not treat the history of zionism as essential to the history of the modern state of israel? DMH223344 (talk) 15:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

---

I agree with some other editors that this paragraph provides too much detail that is not directly related to the topic of this article.

Having said that, I think that the dichotomy land vs people is misleading. Consider the History of Turkey article. It includes information about the territory before the establishment of the current state (duplicated to some extent in other articles like Byzantine Empire) and also about the early history of the Turkic people that took place mostly in Central Asia.

Likewise, both the history of the territory and the reasons for the increased immigration in the 19th century belong to this article. Naturally, other articles like the History of Palestine or History of Zionism would cover these topics in greater detail, which is perfectly fine. Alaexis_¿question? 20:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

As usual, we should be following what RS do. I'm not sure, but I would guess that RS on the history of turkey discuss the history of the land itself in some depth. For the most part, histories of the state of israel are about the history of zionism starting in the late 19th century DMH223344 (talk) 21:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 September 2024

There misleading information given by you Israel captain is Tel Aviv not 2409:4080:E8E:2F84:AE70:59BF:F7DE:B7F8 (talk) 08:02, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

•  Not done It's not clear what change you are seeking. Changes should be proposed in a "change X text to Y text" format. 331dot (talk) 08:07, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 September 2024

Change "Israel's proclaimed capital is in Jerusalem" to "Israel's capital is in Jerusalem" Other countries dont use the word proclaimed...they state the capital of the country. The same wording should apply here. Truthteller30000 (talk) 00:52, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Tthe present wording is the result of deliberate consensus you can find with the archive navigation at the top of the page. Remsense ‥ 论 01:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Change Israel’s capital

Change the term proclaimed to “their capital is”. especially since Israeli control of west Jerusalem is not as disputed Aki123465 (talk) 21:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Just as with the above comment, the current wording was the result of extensive discussion. You don't yet have 500 edits so you can't reopen that discussion. 331dot (talk) 21:28, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, sorry Aki123465 (talk) 21:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 September 2024

"Arabic" is also an official language of Israel Mollye5299 (talk) 17:44, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

It's not. It has 'special status'. An English translation of the Basic Law is available via the Wikipedia article. Sean.hoyland (talk) 18:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. PianoDan (talk) 22:25, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Israel hosting Eurovision

The article says that Israel has hosted Eurovision twice, but actually Israel has hosted three times: in 1979, 1999 and 2019. 2A02:27B0:5503:A9F0:11E6:17DE:B52B:AFFA (talk) 19:28, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 September 2024

I was wondering if you would be able to add as a source to this line: Membership of the Knesset is based on proportional representation of political parties,[327][better source needed] with a 3.25% electoral threshold, which in practice has resulted in coalition governments. for the better source the book הסיפורה של הפוליטקה הישראלית by עמית סיגל. Thank you! :) Ivri.anochi (talk) 02:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done Andre🚐 02:22, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Israeli Apartheid

Since the delivery of the ICJ's advisory opinion in July, should the accusation of Israeli Apartheid be listed in the opening section? JPHC2003 (talk) 20:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

No. Andre🚐 20:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Why not? AnarchistHistory (talk) 00:29, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The lead section is a summary of the most salient points about the topic, not a place for recent news. Andre🚐 00:35, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

How is the ICJ categorical condemnation not salient enough to be mentioned? Dragonsaige (talk) 08:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

That would have to be one of the most important events in the entirety of everything about Israel, which it isn't. See WP:WEIGHT. That probably seems rather important to us in 2024 due to WP:RECENTISM. See WP:NOTNEWS Andre🚐 08:10, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

It's possible the merit of its inclusion will be clear in the future, once it is integrated into the historical record. Remsense ‥ 论 08:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Just to be clear that at this point the ICJ has indicated a breach of Article 3 of ICERD, including "racial segregation and apartheid" without specifying which and developments from CERD/UNGA are awaited. This is actually an important development but no point in discussing it on this page just yet. Selfstudier (talk) 09:04, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

There is an entire section about apartheid in the body, and this should be summarized and reflected in the lede without censorship. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The article says "Israel's practices in its occupation of the Palestinian territories have drawn sustained international criticism along with accusations that it has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity against the Palestinian people from human rights organizations and United Nations officials."

"Crimes against humanity" (which I just wikilinked in the article) includes apartheid so it is mentioned in the lead indirectly. If at some point, a UN body specifically asserts apartheid (in addition to all the others that have asserted it), then I think there is a case for mentioning it in the lead. Selfstudier (talk) 11:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 October 2024

Update religion sections for 2023 Source: https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/547499-ISRAEL-2023-INTERNATIONAL-RELIGIOUS-FREEDOM-REPORT.pdf Hasancelikbilek35 (talk) 20:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Rainsage (talk) 07:37, 2 October 2024 (UTC)