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We have a category Colonial American people. It's header says "
These categories include people who were notable colonists in the regions of North America which would become the United States, that were in British (Thirteen Colonies), Dutch, French, Russian, Spanish or Swedish colonies."
This is a horrible,ahistoric, normalizing present boundaries way to organize things that strikes me as just plain wrong. All the more so because the header itself is not even correct. We should categorize people based on political reality at the time. I wish we could just have a People from British America Category to correspond with British America. The issue there is we already have People from the British West Indies. That groups people from the earliest days in the 1640s and even earlier, down to the 1960s. A lit are broken by Colony, but there are some other groupings. Even though it is an odd anachronism for most of their history People from the Thirteen Colonies is a common enough name that we can just apply it from 1607 on, and ignore than there are not actually 13 colonies until Georgia is formed in the 1720s or so. This leaves the Colony of Newfoundland, British Florida, British Newfoundland and British Quebec that includes Detroit, in an odd position. However my sense is we can live with that.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My other sense is people have largely ignored the horrible header. We are not placing people living in what is now Texas, California and New Mexico under Spanish rule into Colonial American people or its subcats despite the header saying we should. I think at this point we around get rid of or rename the whole Colonial American people tree. Our guidelines really discourage using these confusing demonym forms at all. That is why we renamed Imperial Russian people to People from the Russian Empire. In a form like this is Colonial describing people or American. I think it is meant to modify Anerica, or American. So People from Colonial America. However this is America as in the United States of America, not America as in North America or South America. The current way it is used us intense headache forming. The most logical way to use it would be to have it cover everything that became America in 1776, which is effectively the 13 Colonies, so calling it People of the Thirteen Colonies, and excluding those only defined by actions in New Netherlands, New Sweden, New France, or in Spanish Florida that at times included areas later in Georgia and maybe further north would make sense.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should further rename People of the Thirteen Colonies to People from the Thirteen Colonies. The by Colony sub-cats use from, as do several others. "From" means essentially the sane thing as of. From can include those born elsewhere with an established connection. It woks way better with some subcats. A historian of the Thirteen Colonies can live anywhere, at any time after they were cemented, and if we get a painters cat the painters of the Thirteen Colonies is even worse.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it is 1732 when Georgia is formed. So the 13 Colonies exist de facto for only 44 years, and maybe de jure by dome view from 1732-1783, so 51 years. There were Colonies for at least 126 years before there are 13. However the name has become conventionally applied so I think it works.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Having review Colonial American merchants only 1 person had not operated in areas under British control. I moved him to Dutch merchants, because that is what he was. The only other person who is borderline is George Crogan.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:13, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Croghan did enough in New York he probably counts. Also Virginia claimed the Ohio country, so in the minds of Virginia authorities he was in Virginia. That some of his activities were in areas also claimed by Penbsylvania would make him fit better. He would more clearly fit in Category:Merchants from British America, but if someone really does not see him as fitting is Merchants from the Thirteen Colonies, we could just move him to Irish merchants. Merchant categorization is by nation of affiliation, not place of operation. A Britsh merchant does not become Chinese just because he comes ashore to sell ginseng, opium, or anything else in Shanghai. We are fairly lenient in allowing merchants who become settled residents of an area to be cataloged there, especially when they are from a home country and in a Colony. However Croghan can be called an Irish merchant, at least if we are not willing to accept his working with Johnson in the Province of New York making him from the Thirteen Colonies. I would accept that, but am not dead set on it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:22, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a reason why someone could not be in more that one category… Irish merchant and Merchant from British America (or whatever)? Blueboar (talk) 10:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If they were clearly a national of more than one place at different times in their life, then yes they would go in both.However, if they were only an expatriate Merchant then no they would not go in both. If we have a person who is a British merchant in the 1750s, who travels to Istanbul, sells his goods there for about a year, and then returns home, he is not now a Merchant from the Ottoman Empire. That would be too short to make him notable as an expatriate even. If he stays there 6 years, or comes back 7 times, each staying close to a year, than yes he could be in British expatriate in the Ottoman Empire, or Expatriates in the Ottoman Empire if we do not have that. He would need to in some way become a permanent recognized resident of the Ottoman Empire to move to Merchants from the Ottoman Empire though. We do not place British actors who appear in half a dozen American films in American actors categories. They only go in American actors categories if they in some way become a national of the US, or at least someone with regonized permanent residency. We do not require direct evidence, but merely working in a profession in a country does not make one a national there.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen sometimes navigation templates included in category pages (for example Category:Amiga). Feels like an incorrect use of a category page but I couldn't find any guideline it goes against, closest is WP:CATDESC which says not to include refs or external links in category pages. Mika1h (talk) 16:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you misunderstood me, that link is about how to categorize templates. See the example for what I mean, there are templates sometimes included within category pages. I just didn't want to remove them unless there is a guideline I can cite if someone reverts the edit. --Mika1h (talk) 17:49, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, yeah, those navboxes are all transcluded in the content of the category page. All they accomplish by being there is to link to the same articles that the category page and its subcategory pages already list (at least, all those articles should be in the category or a subcategory), and the reader has to scroll through them to get to the listing that the category page is there to provide, after being confused because they're not seeing what they expect when the page first displays. Redundant, confusing, pointless. Remove them. Largoplazo (talk) 19:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have been thinking naturalists are a good parent category to contain zoologists, botanists, etc. Other editors seem to think that naturalists, botanists, zoologists and others are sub-cats of biologists. What is clear to me is that we need a little order to avoid too much overcategorization. Basically in the 18th and 19th century you had many naturalists who observed and studied a wide range of plants and animals. We have a lot of very specific categories for studying specific types of plants and animals. Several people are in a lot of these categories. I think we should either say that Naturalist is a parent of botanist, zoologist (including ornitologists, mamaologists etc) or state that they are overlap cats, so that we only place people in the naturalists category who are not in any part of the botanists or such. We may also have to work not to diffuse people beyond their real level of specialization. For example John Abbot (entomologist) is said in the lead to have been a "naturalist and artists". He is in categories as a botanists, ornithogist and entomologist. He is in no artist category at all, and is not because of how categories are organized in the naturalist category at all. I added him to the artist tree based on the lead, but think we need to figure out the best way to place him under the scientist tree.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So why do we have a category:Draughtsmen? To make things more fun that category through the sub-cat Dutch draghtsmen, includes Jeanne Bieruma Oosting, who would be a draghtswoman. In the main it looks like most people in Category:Draughtsmen, and its various sub-categories are 2- an artits who produces drawings. We also have a seperate category Category:Drawing artists the main article on that type of art work is under the article drawing. I am thinking we would best off rename/merge Draughtsmen and its sub-cats to Drawing artists, and then create American drawing artists, British drawing artists, French drawing artists, and any other by nationality categories to match the ones we have currently. We will also want to ensure that all the people in these categories are actually drawing artists, move anyone who is not to Category:Architectural drafters, Category:Drafters for those who make non-architectural technical drawinings, and I guess if we have anyone who is a law costs draftsman (and we think it is a defining trait) we could create a category Law Costs Draftsmen, and Parliamentary draftsmen as well if we need it. I do not think we need the playing piece category at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's very hard, if not impossible, to be notable as any of these except #2. A note should clarify that this is what the category is for. Neither "Draughtsman" nor "Drawing artist" are especially familiar or clear terms, and a new name would be better. "Artists notable for drawings" perhaps - this alkso solves the gender issue. The trouble is that over long periods many/most painters produced drawings, as they were trained to do, without being especially known for these. Stern category notes are needed to exclude them. I agree about the merge. Johnbod (talk) 15:57, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think "drawing artist" is probably a good name, and just have a note that says that the category is only for people who are notable for their drawings, not everyone who made a drawing ever.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:26, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree - "drawing artist" seems a made-up Wikipedia term to me, which we should avoid. You never see it in art history. I see some articles on modern artists use "drawer", but I think that is too ambiguous. Johnbod (talk) 21:13, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"drawing artist" is clearly a turn used outside of Wikprledia. I got this return from Google schoolar,
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C23&q=%22drawing+artist%22&btnG= and found several other uses in Wikipedia. At some level I think "drawer" should work, since painter, ether, sculptor, illustrator all work. A bigger issue at be if it is clear that we can distinguish illustrators from drawers. On the other hand drawers is the same word as "drawers" so it is an ambiguous word. The first use of the term I found in Google scholar was "drawers of water" in a reference to labor roles. That is not people making drawings that show water, but people getting water out of a well. The second Google school Reference was talking about doors are drawers in a kitchen. Qe should not use a category name that is an ambiguous word, so I think drawing artist it is since draghtsman is clearly ambiguous.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:45, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That very thin google crop, from various minor papers tangential to art history, shows precisely and clearly that it is a very rare term, and somewhat ambiguous, as you point out. We have many names that are potentially ambiguous, and rather than make up terms, we clarify which sense is meant with a note. I don't think distinguishing "Artists notable for drawings" from illustrators is that hard actually, though some overlap is inevitable. Johnbod (talk) 02:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I still think since "drawing artist" is both a used term and shorter it is much better. We also have avoided using the term "notable" is Category headings. Categories anyway are applied because the thing is defining to the person. As long as we have an article on someone, and their drawing is defining, they should go in the category drawing artists or whatever we call it. Even if they actually became notable in some other way, and their art was not notable. Basically drawing artists, etchers, sculptors, engravers and all other artists have the same test for Category inclusion. Unless we are going to add notable in all Category names we should not add it in any. I think Category:Drawers (artists) would actually the best name.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:12, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On further thought I think Category:Drawers (artists) would be the best name. I think that would actually be a workable article name as well. We could then rename the categories to American drawers (artists), French drawers (artists) and so on. This will avoid any confusion. Since drawer has other common meanings in English it is our only option really. Hopefully this can also spur us to fix other ambiguous occupational titles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I still disagree - this isn't a usual term in art history at all! We have other options - "Artists notable for drawings" suggested above, for example. Johnbod (talk) 00:34, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is a horrible name. No where else do we use the word "notable". It creats a horrible precedent. This article [1] uses the term drawer, but since if you search for "drawer" by itself the first thing that comes up is the part of a dresses or other furniture item, we need to disambiguate the term. It is clear that "drawer" is a term used for artists.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:01, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand here [2] is a source that uses the term "drawing artist". This search on Google for the term "drawing artist" in quotes gives me 19 pages of results [3] so it is clearly a term that is being used by people in a lot of places.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:09, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A google search for the word draghtsman, with that spelling, gives me 33 pages. However the results clearly from even a basic search include both technical draghtsmen and architectural draghtsmen as well as drawing artists/drawers (artists). The issues remains we have no term that is both short and unambiguous, as we do with painters. In Wikipedia "painter" redirects to "painting", "draghtsman" goes to the the disambiguation page, "drawer" goes to the article on the item used in furniture. However the second item at Drawer (disambiguation) says that a drawer is a person who engages in drawing. I really do think Drawers (artists) is the best way to name this category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why "draghtsman"? I've never heard of that spelling. I have, however, come across "draughtsman" (Br. Eng.) and "draftsman" (Amer. Eng.) on many occasions. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:45, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For what it is worth, that 33-page collection ins a mish-mash of the various uses of the term (engineering, architectural, and others not even mentioned on the dab). As such a simple comparison of number of results returned is something of an unfair apples to oranges comparison. older ≠ wiser18:15, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since the biggest issues is "draughtsman" or "draftsman" is ambiguous, and at some level precision superceeds common name, the comparison is not all that material. For example the common name for doctors is "doctor" not "medical doctor" and not "physcian" but "doctor" is ambiguous so we do not use it. I even found an article François de Cuvilliés the Younger, who is called a "draftsman", but since he was also both an architect and an engraver, I was not really able to tell from the article which type of draftsman he was, a drawer (artist) or an architectural draftsman. I am thinking it might be an architectural one, but I am not sure it does mention him "publishing ornamental prints based on the work of his father". I tried following the first linked source, but it did not take me anywhere. I had not realized there was also an English variation issue here, so that we really should not have "American draughtsmen" at all, if the more common form in the US is "draftsmen", but I think drawers (artists) would avoid the English variation issues completely. That said, I picked the first person in American draughtsmen. To start with she is a woman. I went to her obituary [4], 2 times they mention her as having created "drawings" and taught "drawing", they do not ever use any adjective to describe her other than artist. The link between "drawers" and "drawing" is clear, I think the link between "draughtsmen" or "draftsmen" and "drawing" is less clear.At bit later on there is Vernon Howe Bailey. The article we have talks multiple times about his "drawings" but does not use the term "drawer" or "draftsman" or "draughtsman", but I would argue of the 3 the first is most clearly linked. However this source we use [5] says of him " Bailey's abilities were recognized through painting, printmaking, and illustration." So this suggests to me that maybe his "drawings" make him an illustrator. What exactly is the difference between a drawer/draughtsman/draftsman and an illustrator? Eugene Andolsek is described as an "American artistic draughtsman" in our article. "artistic draughtsmen" is one way we could make it clear this category is not not architectural draftsmen, or law costs draftsmen or other such. However I think the gender-specific nature of "draftsmen" is also an issue. In other places this seems to influence our category name. We have Category:Fishers even though fishermen is a far more common term.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
François de Cuvilliés the Younger pretty clearly only drew buildings, both as an architectural draftsman (new, unbuilt ones) and architectural illustrator (famous old ones). Was he an artist? There are no exact distinctions in this sort of area. Vernon Howe Bailey seems best described as a "graphic artist" - he mainly drew, but all Commons seems to have is versions of his drawings as prints. Why do we have Category:Fishers? Seems wrong. They all seem to be male, but in a case like this one could add "and fisherwomen in a note, in case any aren't. Johnbod (talk) 21:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just noticed that Category:Painters from the Republic of Venice is a child Category of Category:Painters from Venice. I think what we actually want is the categories following the an overlap Category rule, like we have with Category:French writers and Category:French-language writers. So many French writers are also French-language writers, that we have a rule that we do not put French writers in the French-language writers tree. I think that is what we want to do with Venice. The Republic of Venice include not only all the general region around Venice, but much further inland. It also included Brescia and some other places in Lombardy, various areas now in Croatia, Greece and Albania, and maybe for short times a little more. Many of the painters from other parts of the Republic of Venice did spent long times in Venice even if not born there, but not all. I think we basically can live with Painters from Venice as a category for Painters active after 1797, and Painters from the Republic of Venice for those for the previous 1000 or so years. If we have any painters from before the formation of the Republic who lived in Venice, we can consider them on a case by case basis. I know some think it is OK to do loose association children categories, but I do not think this is good when it is not loose. This is not the a case like the Republic of Genoa that was very little beyond the city limits. I am not sure if any categories under Category:People from the Kingdom of Naples that are in the Category:People from Naples tree, but I would object to that placement just as much if it is happening.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:27, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did not have access to a computer when I first wrote the above post. I am now at a computer which made it possible to update the formating and easily fix spelling issues.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:10, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A Hatter, yesterday, denies being a milliner Do we have non-google dictionary definitions? Also, why use nowiki above? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:52, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
looking more closely at our article on hatmaking, we have a statement with 2 sources at the end of the sentance that says from 1713 or so the term "milliner" gradually came to mean a women who made and sold hats and other accessories for women. So it is not just that the products were for women, but only women selling such were milliners. A man selling women's hats would still have been a hatter in 1875 use.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:22, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that for categorization purposes, it makes sense to have one cat that uses both terms (ie “Category:Hatters and Milliners”). Blueboar (talk) 19:01, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have decided that deaths by place is not defining. So "deaths in Virginia" does not contain any biographical articles (or at least it is not supposed to, I did not check recently). We have also decided that not all diseases or infectious diseases, of other possible causes of death are defining causes of death that we categorize by. Because of this I think we should make the sub-categories by place of those categories (deaths from disease, deaths from infectious diseases, this principal may apply to other possible categories), and make Category:Deaths from disease and Category:Deaths from infectious disease into container categories. We currently have people in them, but I do not think that some died from disease or an infectious-disease is defining per se, only some specific disease causes of death. We should only put people in a category for the specific disease or diseases they died of, based on reliable sources. We should not place people in the deaths by disease category directly. At a lower level "deaths in India by disease" and "deaths in India by infectious disease" should only contain specific subcategories for specific diseases, not articles on people either for whom we cannot define the disease or that disease does not have a specific catehory for India (as an example, this applies to all places). Because we do not categorize by place of death we essentially first move a person to the specific cause of death. Be it cholera, bubonic plague or any other cause we feel is a justifiable category. We then subdivide these cause of death categories by various places to aid navigation. However we should only do this for the specific cause of death, not a vague grouping.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should the DEFAULTSORT for The Salt Path (film) be ["Salt Path, The (film)" or "Salt Path (film), The"?
A recent edit by @Fuddle: changed it from the former to the latter and I want to revert but would like to see documentation or consensus to quote when doing so, especially as it was done using a tool or gadget called "Cold Default Sort".
It seems more logical, to me, to sort all articles with the title "The Salt Path" together, after any (hypothetical) works "A Salt Path" and before "Salt Path Adventure", and keep the bracketed disambiguator as the final element.
@PamD: Consider that WP:SORTKEY says to remove all punctuation except hyphens, apostrophes and full stops. This would make your choices Salt Path, The film or Salt Path film, The. That apart, I can see arguments on both sides. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Commas are a special case. You remove them from the original page name before rearranging it, it does say Commas can be added when re-ordering words, as in the previous example. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:44, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is use of a "People from ____ County" appropriate when the county is not specifically mentioned in the article? For example, "People from San Luis Obispo County, California" is among the categories for James Griffith. As far as I can see, San Luis Obispo County is not mentioned in the article. Is this an exception to WP:CATV? Eddie Blick (talk) 00:08, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, Griffin died in San Luis Obispo County. There are is no consensus as to whether a death location constitutes being "from" a place or not.--User:Namiba13:35, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Categorization is supposed to be based on defining attributes … if the article text does not even mention a category’s attribute (in this case being “from” a specific place) I don’t see how the attribute can be considered defining for that topic/subject. Blueboar (talk) 14:55, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Avila Beach is also too small to have significant medical facilities. So in this case since the article says he died of cancer there, one can reasonably infer that he lived there in his later years. Whether that's enough to be defining for a category is a different question. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:42, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily, some people with cancer die in the attempt to complete the Things To Do Before I Die. Maybe he always wanted to visit Avila Beach, and having finally made it there, realised there was nothing else worth visiting. We just don't know. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:59, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a nice place to visit; I've been there more than once. But it seems an odd choice for a bucket list. Nevertheless, as you say, we should not operate on guesswork. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:40, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Our guidelines on categorization specifically say that people should not be categorized by place of death. We have not well enforced this rule. We allow say Deaths from lung cancer in California because deaths from lung cancer itself is too large. We do not however place biographical articles in deaths in California, that is a container category for articles on types of death. Just because you died somewhere does not mean you are from there. However to address the actual question, I would say if we have statements in the article that say that someone is "from Avila Beach" either explicitly, or implicitly based on other things said there (but place of death alone is not enough, lots of people die on trips, short visits, in a hospital in a place they never lived etc.) then if we do not have a category for Avila Beach, we can place them in the category for the county. Although you could solve all that issue by first editing the article to explicitly state that Avila Beach is in San Luis Obispo County. We have to watch that we only put people in these categories where they make sense. We would not place someone in the San Luis Obispo County category if they died or moved away years or decades before the county came to be. Yet in the case of German states formed after World War II we have people from the 18th-century being placed in categories based on these states. Such things ought not to be.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:52, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In a related question, should Burials at X cemetery be in City X or people from City X? User:Alansohn and I have differing views on this. I contend that Category:Burials at Hackensack Cemetery should be in Category:People from Hackensack, New Jersey while the aforementioned editor contends that it should be in Category:Hackensack, New Jersey. I contend that a category with people is most useful as a subcategory of a people-based category. Moreover, being buried in a specific place for all of eternity does, in fact, demonstrate the kind of long-lasting connection one might expect from those in the from category. What do you think?--User:Namiba18:29, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So… one of my ancestors purchased a 12 grave plot in a cemetary located a few towns away from where he lived. It was a brand new cemetary at the time he purchased it, and he thought it was nicer than the old one in his town.
Since the family already owned the plot, his children and several grandchildren were also buried there - even some who had moved to other parts of the country. The point being… none of them ever lived in the town where this cemetery is located. It’s simply where they were buried. I don’t think it accurate to say they are (in any way) “from” this town. Blueboar (talk) 21:39, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My POV is that the "from" categories also include people who have a close connection to a certain place. Is not the permanent location of your body for all of history a close connection? Moreover, isn't it more likely that a user looking to find where someone is buried to look in the "from" category alongside other biographies?--User:Namiba15:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly don’t think so. My family continues to have a tie to the town where my relatives lived… but not to the town where they are buried.
Then consider soldiers that are buried on battlefields or national cemeteries. A WW II soldier from the California might be buried in Normandy, France… a Union soldier from Maine might be buried in Arlington. Those soldiers were not “from” France or Virginia… they were “from” California or Maine.
We want to avoid categories of one item, so I would go with “Cemeteries in X location” if the city/town has more than one cemetery … but bump it up to the next regional level if the city/town only has a single cemetery. Blueboar (talk) 01:02, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Remark: To hopefully clarify some confusion due to ambiguous meaning of "included": the special wiki term for this is transclusion. The templates {{Amiga hardware}}, {{AmigaOS}} and so on are transcluded in the page Category:Amiga. —andrybak (talk) 18:06, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
