Talk:Tvrtko I of Bosnia

mention of Slavonia

There's a mention of Slavonia among Tvrtko's conquests, but this is incoherent with other descriptions. While the medieval meaning of Slavonia was much larger than today, it was largely towards the west, not towards the south. Does someone have access to the full text of Fine (1994) page 398? @Surtsicna added this back in 2016. --Joy (talk) 18:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

In the meantime, @Norden1990 posted some links in the discussion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bosnian-Hungarian War (1387-1390) where I read some machine translations that mention how flags of Naples were raised in the Syrmian and Slavonian counties, but I still didn't find clear explanations of where Tvrtko may have invaded to his north, rather mostly to his southwest. --Joy (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Google Books preview showed me pages 397 and 398 now and it says:

Soon Bosnian and Croatian troops were campaigning together on behalf of Naples in Croatia in the region around Zagreb. And by the end of the year, 1387, the Bosnians and their Croatian allies were in control of most of Croatia and Slavonia. The Horvats, who had sought refuge with Tvrtko, were now able to make their return to Croatia.

John of Paližna had been named Ban of Croatia, Dalmatia and Slavonia in 1385 by the ill-fated Charles of Naples. Tvrtko recognized John's title and appointed him to be his deputy for various Dalmatian towns that submitted to him.

Some of the towns seem to have been unhappy with the change, preferring as their suzerain the more distant Hungary to near-by Bosnia. Tvrtko never tried to force his rule upon either Zadar or Dubrovnik. Thus between 1387 and 1389 Tvrtko made himself overlord over a large part of Slavonia, Dalmatia and Croatia south of Velebit—including Knin, Ostrovica, and Klis. On behalf of Naples his troops even passed through Slavonia into Srem. Though these actions were carried out in the name of Naples, it is evident that Tvrtko and his own vassal, Hrvoje, with whom he was closely associated in this venture, were acting for themselves and it was they who held the actual authority in much of this vast area. In 1390 Tvrtko began to call himself King of Croatia and Dalmatia.

There aren't any internal references on this page so it's hard to tell how precise this is intended to be, but made himself overlord doesn't necessarily mean having practical control throughout the 2-3 year period, it's more like a claim...

I also looked for sources about Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić at this time and found this in the Croatian Biographical Lexicon's article about that[1]:

Na poč. 1387. pošao je s bratom Vukom na čelu bosanske vojske u pomoć svrgnutom zagrebačkom biskupu Pavlu Horvatu i dvojici pobunjenih hrvatskih velikaša, banu Ivanišu Horvatu i vranskom prioru Ivanu Paližni. Usput su opljačkali posjede Žigmundovih pristaša Zrinskih. Potkraj 1388. Hrvoje je s bratom Vojislavom bio zauzet događajima u Dalmaciji [...]

So we can confirm that the focus was on the south already by the next year. This article is attributed to Pejo Ćošković.

Likewise when reading about Paul Horvat[2]:

Kraljica Marija u lipnju je oslobođena, a 14. IX. 1387. posjede Horvatâ predala je Gorjanskima.

This is likewise possibly just a claim, but it indicates that the Luxembourg factions didn't sit still about the issue of who controls Slavonia even that same year. This article is attributed to Josip Lučić[3] and Zrinka Nikolić[4].

And in turn reading about Nikola II Gorjanski[5]:

Kao jedan od najvjernijih pristaša kraljice Marije i njezina muža kralja Žigmunda, Nikola je 1387. bio jedan od vojvoda u pohodu kraljevske vojske koja je pobunjene pristaše braće Horvat potisnula preko Drave i tamo ih u nekoliko bitaka pobijedila. Nikola je potom Ivaniša Horvata opkolio u Požegi i prisilio na predaju, ali je ovaj – dok je Nikola pošao u Mačvu da je otme Srbima – uspio iz zarobljeništva pobjeći u Bosnu svojemu savezniku kralju Tvrtku. Nikoli su se te godine predali zagrebački Gradec i Kaptol, a za zasluge ga je Žigmund imenovao mačvanskim banom. Nikola je 1387–89. uspješno suzbijao provale Ivaniša Horvata preko Save u istočnu Slavoniju, a uspio je svojega tasta, kneza Lazara, nagovoriti da prestane podupirati Horvata.

So the Horvats had advanced across the Drava in '87, but were pushed back, and in turn defeated in both Zagreb and Požega, presumably the same year. Further advances are also described as successfully repelled. This article is attributed to Mladen Švab.

Note that HBL articles are dated 2002, which is presumably just the date of the latest editorial change, as Lučić had died in 1994 and Švab had died in 2000.

So it doesn't look like there's consensus that any meaning of Slavonia was an area conventionally under control of the Anjou factions throughout these three years, rather it was at the very least contested by the Luxembourg factions throughout the period. --Joy (talk) 13:36, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Indeed Fine said that on pp.307-398 : Soon Bosnian and Croatian troops were campaigning together on behalf of Naples in Croatia in the region around Zagreb. And by the end of the year, 1387, the Bosnians and their Croatian allies were in control of most of Croatia and Slavonia. The Horvats, who had sought refugc with Tvrtko, were now able to make their retum to Croatia. Tvrtko himself also čame out openly for Naples in the course of 1387. He sent his own armies into Hungarian Dalmatia, in particular into the strip of coastland betvveen Zadar and Dubrovnik. Actively helped by John of Paližna and Hrvoje, Tvrtko established his suzcrainty over ali the towns between these two cities, though not including Zadar and Dubrovnik themselves; thus Split, Omiš, Trogir, Šibenik, and even sevcral Adriatic islands submitted to Tvrtko. He issucd charters confirming their existing privileges, including their rights to remain self-governing under their own town councils and existing law codes. Tvrtko evidently intended to retain these towns for Bosnia. John of Paližna had been named Ban of Croatia, Dalmatia, and Slavonia in 1385 by the ill-fated Charles of Naples. Tvrtko recognized John’s title and appointed him to be his deputy for various Dalmatian towns that submitted to him. Some of the towns seem to have been unhappy with the change, preferring as their suzerain the more distant Hungary to near-by Bosnia. Tvrtko never tried to force his rule upon either Zadar or Dubrovnik. Thus between 1387 and 1389 Tvrtko made himself overlord over a large part of Slavonia, Dalmatia, and Croatia south of Velebit — including Knin, Ostrovica, and Klis. On behalf of Naples his troops even passed through Slavonia into Srem. Though these actions were carried out in the name of Naples, it is evident that Tvrtko and his own vassal, Hrvoje, with whom he was closely associated in this venture, were acting for themselves and it was they who held the actual authority in much of this vast area. In 1390 Tvrtko began to call himself King of Croatia and Dalmatia. ౪ Santa ౪^99° 20:37, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

@Santasa99 yes, I cited that part of Fine above, the question is how much weight do we put on the between 1387 and 1389 Tvrtko made himself overlord over a large part of Slavonia. My rephrasing edit was this, ideally we expand that paragraph by another sentence or two, referenced to something solid. --Joy (talk) 19:36, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Not much. Maybe, for the sake of respecting Surtiscna quite considerable knowledge on the all-medieval.Balkan history, some kind of mention with a context, of sort that he intruded there and that he considered himself an overlord, but I admit no historian gives that episode same weight as to Tvrtko's takeover of, say, islands, where he also had very short effective control but that episode is important for variety of other reasons. (I responded before checking your link, so let me get back later if I missed something.). ౪ Santa ౪^99° 20:03, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I would not phrase it like that neither: "His realm now encompassed much of Slavonia", but some context to your sentence should give reader a better understanding of what that intrusion in Slavonia meant. I can't say from top of my head how and what else to say - if you have an idea, then go ahead, or maybe I could do it later. ౪ Santa ౪^99° 20:11, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

There is something else that you missed in this - remember that Vego's map we discussed earlier, the "greatest extent" and all that - Slavonia is considered to spread across the Sava into a territory already north of the Sana river and town of Prijedor, so that corner of modern-day BiH between Una, Sava, Sana and Vrbas, drawn in those maps like Vego's as temporary holdings, vis-a-vis "greatest extent, with some very light shadings or drawn with "isprekidane crtice" (can't remember English :-)) or dots. So, this Slavonia territory is mostly in moder-day Bosnia around the Sava (Babonić family was there) ౪ Santa ౪^99° 20:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Could be, but I'd prefer to cite a source with text specifically discussing the same level of toponymy as the other quality information, as opposed to relying on any of these vague maps. --Joy (talk) 20:38, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

No, certainly - I just wanted to make a point about the fact that Slavonia spread across the Sava into that triangle between rivers (unlike today), probably much of northern Bosnia around Sava was considered Slavonia at the time. In any case, I would avoid saying "large part of Slavonia" - the problem is that that part of Fine's text mention only Zagreb, so it is difficult to use it for refing which part or how much of Slavonia - so if we can't specifically say which part I would say "some portion of Slavonia territory", probably not much. If there's no rush, we should check some works on specific subject (Pavao Živković, Pejo Ćošković, why not Mrgić). But if it's not that important, just say as you said:"between 1387 and 1389 Tvrtko I made himself overlord over a large part of Slavonia". ౪ Santa ౪^99° 21:18, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I'd keep it out because this is going to be inherently confusing to the average English reader, who we already confuse with Slavonia vs Slovenia vs Slovakia, excess varying usage of "Croatia" and "Slavonia" that doesn't match modern-day meanings is just making the article less readable for no discernible benefit. --Joy (talk) 22:28, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

OK, leave it with that one sentence as it is now, may be in time something coherent could be drained out of materials on the subject. ౪ Santa ౪^99° 01:08, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

map of largest territorial extent

I noticed we use File:Kraljevina Bosna 1391.png, while File:Medieval Bosnian State Expansion.svg exists with Latin labels and vector graphics, as well as not being kind of cut off at the western and eastern edges. The only substantial difference in the pictures seems to be not attributing the upper valley of the Una and Unac to Tvrtko in the west, but it does attribute Konavle to him in the south. Which is more accurate? --Joy (talk) 06:46, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

The article in Croatian Encyclopedia about Tvrtko[6] says:

Početkom 1377. preoteo je Đurađu Balšiću Trebinje, Konavle i Dračevicu, čime je pod svoju vlast okupio znatan dio područja koje su nekoć držali Nemanjići.

That seems pretty clear. Their article about the Nelipčić family[7] mentions "Srb, Ostrog i Unac" as properties of them and in turn Louis I of Hungary in 1345:

Preslaba da mu se odupre, Vladislava se, nakon kraćeg otpora, odlučila izmiriti s kraljem, kojemu je osim Knina vratila i Počitelj, Srb, Ostrog i Unac (1345).

It's really unclear from the rest of the text what might have happened there 42 years after that. --Joy (talk) 06:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

[8] shows Santasa99 added this in 2021, saying this map is better sourced (per Vego and Ćorović), and is much nicely rendered

While looking at it, I also noticed is that the PNG map actually has incoherent source maps, because they differ between one another - the 1935 Ćorović map shows Pelješac as well as the entire area between Dubrovnik and Ston under Tvrtko, but the 1957 Vego map does not; likewise they seem to differ for the coastal part of Konavle. --Joy (talk) 20:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Because the 1957 Vego source map referenced File:Bosna.svg doesn't show any toponyms in the Una valley, I'd say we should disregard that difference and go back to the other SVG map. --Joy (talk) 20:51, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Joy, hello. The svg map is completely unsourced map, and I may add quite unusual (I am not surprised it is unsourced, actually, because I have never seen such borders in books or research papers). But the most important thing is that Vego's map accurately presents what is referred to as "the greatest extent", doesn't matter for how long that greatest extent was reality on the ground, etc. Historical Atlas of Bosnia and Herzegovina actually confirms Vego's rendering of "the greatest extent" borders. Personally, I really think that svg map is inaccurate and un-sourcable - it's more a synthesis, in our wiki sense of the word, by combining different moments in time with different spatial extent(s). ౪ Santa ౪^99° 00:25, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Since it's in a much better format, can we just extract the useful parts of it for 1391 and lose these extraneous parts?

File:Kraljevina Bosna 1391.png doesn't match Vego's map, heck it doesn't even match File:Bosna.svg, it's in a worse format, and it doesn't have useful toponymy to put the map in context. --Joy (talk) 06:57, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, you are on point regarding format and info scarcity, even script wise (Latin would certainly be preferable), but it does matches Vego's in "greatest extent" border contours. But never mind that, what I am not exactly sure is what do you propose to do, what info to extract from which file exactly? I tried to fix map in file called File:Medieval Bosnian State Expansion.svg according to Atlas and Vego, but I never finished that job, it was too time-consuming for me because I had to learn using Inkscape in the process, which is no small feat. Maybe it could be used as it is, half-baked. ౪ Santa ౪^99° 17:15, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

OK, I'll try to have a look at that when I have some time. --Joy (talk) 07:36, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I will again try to fix/improve at some point in the (near maybe) future either File:Medieval Bosnian State Expansion.svg or File:Bosna.svg because we need a good and properly sourced map for the medieval Bosnia and Herzegovina; after all, that scope is my field of interest, ౪ Santa ౪^99° 18:21, 21 June 2024 (UTC)